Islamic marriage advice and family advice

I want to marry a girl whom I loved and had physical relationship with

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Assalmualaikkum,

I'm in a relationship with a non muslim girl from past 6 years. We had physical relations too.

I know what I did was wrong,  and I want to marry her as in Nikaah. My parents and a priest advised me not to marry,  as it is not allowed in Islam. But I can never cheat a girl in this situation.

Please let me know whether I'm marrying that girl is a sin.

- nadeerk


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26 Responses »

  1. Salaams,

    The first thing you must do is stop whatever relationship you are currently having with this girl. You must do this whether you end up marrying her or not. Repent to Allah and make tawbah for what has passed and make an intention to move forward with a clean slate and doing things only as they should be done.

    As to whether you can marry her or not (as she is not Muslim), Muslim men may only marry non-Muslim women if they are Ahl-al-Kitab (people of the book)- meaning Christians or Jews. If she is from any other faith background such as Buddhist, Hindu, or even no background at all; then she is not permissable for you to marry. If this is the case, you will have to leave her alone for good and accept that she is not meant for you.

    If she is Ahl-al-Kitab and you still want to marry her, it's best to approach her parents. By the way, how do your parents feel about it? If they are not supportive of you being with her, are you sure you want to drive a wedge in the family by going forward with this? You sound like you may be better off letting her go and finding a nice sister to spend your life with.

    The truth is, your emotions have already betrayed you and have enticed you to follow a sinful course with her as you have shared. You have to be very careful that they are not driving your current decisions and outlooks. I suggest you make istikhara not so much to find out if you should marry this girl or not, but to try to find guidance on what Allah would have you do from this point forward to align your life and choices with what He wills for you.

    -Amy
    IslamicAnswers.com Editor

  2. dear brother,

    asalamalaikum,

    good to see that you are among that rare breed that when have relations with woman , want to honor them by marrying them . may Allah make this intention and path easy for you. ask her if she is happy to convert and if she is then marry her. ofcourse conversion should not be just to legalise the marriage by islamic laws, but Allah knows this may be the way for her enter the fold of islam.

    as for now please try to stay away from prohibited acts.dont just shut down or run away without telling her whats the reason should you decide not to marry her. she is a human being with emotions and heart, DONT play with it .

  3. I was with a guy who left me after seven years because his parents didn't agree,he said he loved me but was spineless to stand up to them.

    I am hurt,betrayed,aching and most of all he has ruined a big chunk of my life.

    • Fi, sorry to hear this. If you want to log in and write your experience as a separate post, maybe we can offer you some advice Insha'Allah.

      Wael
      IslamicAnswers.com Editor

  4. my nephew is in love with hindu girl and wanted to marry her. but our wish is asking her to convert to muslim but she want to remain in hindu. As parents try to advice the son but he is so stubborn . poor mother so unhappy .what can we do by stop him from marrying her . i as aunty try to talk to him still does not work. i praying allah to change his mind . my nephew is a nice guy i dont know what make him change. and one i am afraid that he will convert ot hindu also. can advise what we to do at this suitation.

    • begam, please log in and write your question as a separate post. My short answer to you is to advise your nephew to fear Allah. Does he really want to disobey Allah and risk Allah's anger and disaproval? Doesn't he want his marriage to be blessed and happy? If he has some consciousness of Allah, maybe he will listen.

      Wael
      IslamicAnswers.com Editor

  5. Nadeerk,

    I really wish, you had given things a great thought before entering into a relationship, which is anyway not approved in Islam. It is so not right to sit and ponder upon everything now, especially when the relationship you so very much loved being a part of, has been put to test!

    I am glad, that you at least have the realisation that leaving the girl behind after everything that has happened between you is not right.

    Look, we can't make very grave mistakes in life, hoping for ALLAH to forgive us eventually. God's blessed us with a Mind and Soul for some reasons, to make sound decisions.

    The only fair and just thing, I see now is to marry the girl, you have committed to and have been with for all these years! Conversion or no conversion, is between you and her. Something that you should have NOT ignored while spending all these years and "good" times with her.

    The mistakes you made earlier were selfish, the "mistake" you may do now, will at least be in sync with fairness and justice. And my strong belief is ALLAH can never punish any of us for being JUST OR FAIR!

    I hope you understand what I am talking about! Also am sure your parents, have no idea about the kind of intimacy you have shared with this girl! You know, a partial truth is as good as a lie.

    Do not wrong people, there can be nothing worst than that!

    Pray God helps you take the right decision.

    • Asalaam alaikum,

      As Sister Amy referenced:

      It is more than likely that he cannot marry her without conversion because she is nether Muslim, Christian or Jew, as revealed through the line below.

      My parents and some priest advised me not to marry, as it is not allowed in Islam.

      • Salaam,

        Perhaps a reason why I have said, what I have said?!?!?!

        If the OP's never bothered to consult the "priest" and parents while getting into a relationship with a Non Muslim, while entering into a physical relationship with a girl, which is totally forbidden in Islam, then why is he now concerned with sin, religion and his parents' wish? The decision to enter into the relationship and getting intimate was a mutual decision between the guy and the girl, so now let even the decision to convert for getting married be between them.

        Honestly, tell me, do you think the OP has been an ideal muslim to encourage and motivate his partner into becoming one herself???

        We expect the world to appreciate the beauty of Islam, but we ourselves so often let down our guiding principles. Check the entire site and compare the ratio between people who have raised the question before entering such relationships and people who have raised the question after fulfilling their desires, especially when they had to fulfill a commitment and you will realise how unfortunate the entire situation is!

        More often than not, such people come here only to "validate" their misdeeds under the name of religion, family, or ALLAH, whereas no one but them are the sole culprits.

        The point is for how long, can we allow this trend to go on? Check the forum, you have women from all walks of life (some have even converted) complaining about how they were betrayed by their Muslim partners. Why should I or any other believer or my religion, suffer for the misdeeds of someone very irresponsible, someone who uses the religion only when he needs to wriggle out of a commitment?

        Do you think, such men do not know what they're getting into is HARAAM? Then why do they turn a blind eye to it to keep everything hunky dory, until their desires / needs are met with? WHy is it only when it is time to make things respectable that they think of religion and sin?

        I am really annoyed with such people, who bring bad name to the religion.

        I will never encourage this man to abandon the girl he's been with so many years. He's anyway made a lot of "mistakes", one more which is at least in SYNC with FAIRNESS AND JUSTICE, am sure wouldn't harm him for sure!

        The most disappointing thing I have observed is we have reduced ourselves to being SELECTIVELY PEDANTIC followers of Islam without any regards for justice or fairness. Why can't we come up with a solution to bring an end to these situations, that is fair to everyone involved? I have never seen anyone reproach such OPs for doing what they have done.

        Worst is we ask such reckless OPs to abandon one girl whose life he's already ruined and then encourage him to marry a pious Muslimah, whose life will again be ruined!!! How is that a fair suggestion or advice is something I really fail to understand? Instead why not suggest him to marry the one he's always been with out of their own free will. Perhaps as a gesture to atone his "Sins" or "mistakes".

        I really feel disappointed, when we stop being human and only interpret a beautiful religion to our convenience!!!

          • Salaams,

            I do understand what you are saying, as far as finishing what's been started. You are right, he was wrong to veer off in this direction to begin with, and his choices have left someone else's life disrupted. I do believe there should be a way to clean this mess up, but we have to be careful how we advise that being done.

            Like I said before, if she is Christian or Jewish, sure he can go ahead and marry her and "make things right". However, we can't assume she is just because he mentions a priest. There are priests in other faiths, and sometimes people may call the religious figureheads of religions such as Hinduism or Buddhism "priests" simply because they don't know the formal title for them. IF it turns out she is not Christian or Jewish, and she is not willing to convert, advising him to marry her anyway in the interest of "justice and fairness" really just boils down to telling him to continue in disobedience against Allah.

            -Amy
            IslamicAnswers.com Editor

        • Asalaam alaikum tourbillon,

          Your anger at these men is justified, but your suggestion is misguided. It is undoubtedly unfortunate that this person waited till this time to realize this, but we cannot suggest to make the haram into the halal, either. If she does not convert or she's not a Jew or Christian, ending the relationship would be the most just thing for her and of course, in being obedient to Allah (swt).

          We have no idea her faith and cannot merely suggest that he take her without knowing if the union would be considered forbidden.

          It would be nice if someone could suggest however, how he could let her go, perhaps even to the point that he shows her this website so that we could help her, too. And so, we either encourage him to help her convert/revert or to leave this situation altogether if she is not a person of the Book. Our individual "belief" in justice is secondary to Allah (swt), the Prophet and the message of Islam.

          Also, while you agree that this situations mutual, you also make no mention that she might be violating the tenets of her faith, and so, if he leaves her, then this might help her to reform herself, as well.

          Yet, another issue is this scenario: What if the brother wants to reform himself and the whole situaton? What if the love and fear of Allah (swt) has finally caught up to him? Do you really want to advise him back to the area where he is trying to save her and himself from?

          Our duty is to bring encouragement, reminders and suggestions of religious teachings to those who seek it. This is why we often consult Islamic guidance and submit our advice accordingly.

          Is there a verse in the Qur'an that we can reference? Yes.

          Surah Al-Asr
          In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
          By the declining day,
          Lo! man is a state of loss,
          Save those who believe and do good works, and exhort one another to truth and exhort one another to patience.

          What is the "Truth" here? Allah's (swt) Decrees. Why patience? So that we adhere and be patient with our situations both inside of ourselves and in the world through not of our own devices, but in submission to Allah (swt).

          Also take into consideration what happens if this brother takes this woman regardless of her faith and one day demands that she converts afterwards? What about the justice to the children that would be born as illegitimate, because this union would not be recognized under Allah's (swt) law? Those concerns are greater.

          If you have never seen anyone reproach the OPs for their behavior, then honestly, you haven't been reading all the posts. There are plenty of people who bring just reminders and attention to these issues. More so perhaps than you may ave realized, and of those posts, some of the most aggressive responses are aimed at the wrongful men.

  6. @Prof. X

    No offence ( I mean it!) your post is again VERY elaborate but it fails to offer a solution!!!

    Your anger at these men is justified, but your suggestion is misguided

    So who decides this? Also, I do not think so and I'll tell you why.

    It is undoubtedly unfortunate that this person waited till this time to realize this, but we cannot suggest to make the haram into the halal, either. If she does not convert or she's not a Jew or Christian, ending the relationship would be the most just thing for her and of course, in being obedient to Allah (swt).

    We have no idea her faith and cannot merely suggest that he take her without knowing if the union would be considered forbidden.

    It would be nice if someone could suggest however, how he could let her go, perhaps even to the point that he shows her this website so that we could help her, too. And so, we either encourage him to help her convert/revert or to leave this situation altogether if she is not a person of the Book. Our individual "belief" in justice is secondary to Allah (swt), the Prophet and the message of Islam.

    Honestly, again no offence but please say something that I do not know! Say something that people on this forum do not know! Say something that followers of Islam do not know!

    Pick any post on the forum discussing something similar, and you will find a similar response to it. We have been going on and on and on about this ( in fact, we must put a link to those posts now, instead of again typing in the same advice, or argument!), but all of us together have failed to generate an effective solution to this problem - AND THAT PRECISELY IS MY POINT!

    All I am concerned with is a solution that is fair and just to everyone involved! We have had enough of pedantic belief in Islam!

    Also, I wonder, do anyone of us, who post our "advice" on the posts here realise, how our words can affect a person's life forever? DO we even pause and think before we so easily ask people who have shared years together to separate just because we think it is right! I am really concerned, are we even wise enough to handle people and their situations?? I have serious doubts here!

    Also, while you agree that this situations mutual, you also make no mention that she might be violating the tenets of her faith, and so, if he leaves her, then this might help her to reform herself, as well.

    We're addressing two adults here, who know what they have been doing! Who are we to judge them or tell them to reform themselves? Are we by any chance running a rehabilitation centre or what?

    Also, why should I be concerned with the tenets of her religion, that is entirely her business. I am only concerned with the guy who's let my beliefs and let my religion down (The guy's my family, the girl's not, right?). Forget the girl, but am sure the guy grew up learning at least the basic fundamentals of Islam. How could he let that down? Are we so weak, that the world around can sabotage our very basic ideals and value system?

    Yet, another issue is this scenario: What if the brother wants to reform himself and the whole situaton? What if the love and fear of Allah (swt) has finally caught up to him? Do you really want to advise him back to the area where he is trying to save her and himself from?

    Do you remember the post by Ona (http://www.zawaj.com/askbilqis/getting-together-with-a-muslim-guy/ )? Your blunt but elaborate reply, especially how guys ill treat women? How elaborately you have described what breed these men belong to? How and why the OP should avoid even meeting the guy?

    Your reply was, Doesn't that make you pause and reflect beyond the pleasures that you were feeling and make you wonder of how little he thought of God? Doesn't that scare you as a woman, to know that a man disregards the Lord so readily for so many years? Does this sound like a faithful man? How do you expect this to improve?

    I completely agreed with you on this! And I still believe in this.

    Believe me, let the OP here follow what you have suggested and few months down the line, we will have another Ona posting a question on this forum and she will exactly get the kind of advice you have given to Ona! RUN AWAY AND STAY AWAY only because you were true to the man you loved but he never thought of you anything beyond an object to play around with!

    I mean, what! Are we even consistent in our views. I repeat, do we even realise, our words are affecting people and their lives?!?!?

    Also, you have talked about what if the brother wants to reform himself and What if the love and fear of Allah (swt) has finally caught up to him? Do you really want to advise him back to the area where he is trying to save her and himself from?

    I have an excellent suggestion for this, let the guy who's so keen on reforming himself, and who's now concerned with his sins and past mistakes, devote his entire life to the service of ALLAH. Why marry, why ruin another life? He's anyway jumped the line, so now let him repent and atone for his sins by deciding not to marry and instead devote his life to the service of our ummah and ALLAH?

    Even the girl wouldn't get offended, perhaps even she can join him in this. Right?

    Our duty is to bring encouragement, reminders and suggestions of religious teachings to those who seek it. This is why we often consult Islamic guidance and submit our advice accordingly.

    Honestly, if that is the main concern, then I really appreciate everyone here. But the only thing that disturbs me is why do we need to wait for people to make mistakes and then help and encourage them with solutions! Don't you think, the only way out is to get pro-active? That we being a part of this ummah, we're all so proud of should encourage, remind, suggest and STRICTLY IMBIBE our religious teachings in our children, our brothers and sisters???

    Surah Al-Asr
    In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
    By the declining day,
    Lo! man is a state of loss,
    Save those who believe and do good works, and exhort one another to truth and exhort one another to patience.

    What is the "Truth" here? Allah's (swt) Decrees. Why patience? So that we adhere and be patient with our situations both inside of ourselves and in the world through not of our own devices, but in submission to Allah (swt).

    I think, I have already expressed my views on this! I believe, in getting pro-active!!! If that's there, I am with everyone!

    Also take into consideration what happens if this brother takes this woman regardless of her faith and one day demands that she converts afterwards? What about the justice to the children that would be born as illegitimate, because this union would not be recognized under Allah's (swt) law? Those concerns are greater.

    Why should we have a problem with the conversion then? My point is, has this person played the ideal Muslim first, to encourage a non-muslim into embracing the religion? NO! And that is where the entire problem begins. How do you expect a non - muslim to appreciate Islam when we ourselves are taking our religion for granted and have made it a religion of convenience!

    In fact, let this guy be the ideal muslim first, be the ideal respectable muslim man first, make the situation respectable for this woman and I can assure you she will have every reason to respect our beliefs, our religion, our people!

    All we have so far advised people has only brought us hatred. Why should our ideal brothers or sons suffer because other Muslim men have failed to live life the ideal islamic way?

    And finally, at the end of it all, Prof. X, I hope you understand I have nothing against you or anyone here but I certainly want us to think on the questions I have raised. Ask yourself and give things a thought, aren't some very irresponsible "believers" affecting the entire ummah? Why are we letting them have the eascape route they always look for? (Look at the ethnic backgrounds of these women, often non - believers, often of foreign origin. Do you see a pattern there? I do, and it annoys me!) Why are we (you, I or every believer) becoming the instruments in helping these guys go scot free?

    Hope you understand what the angst is all about!

    • Salaams,

      Tourbillon, I see you are having a very strong reaction to the situation behind this post in addition to how it's been responded to.  I think in one sense it's a good thing, because such reactions show we still care about what's right and wrong. But in another sense it's futile, because enacting the solutions you are referencing can't be done by lengthy and passionate posts, either.

      You said, "... all of us together have failed to generate an effective solution to this problem - AND THAT PRECISELY IS MY POINT!"

      All of us, that means you are including yourself as well. So if I'm understanding, no one has really been able to "solve" this poster's problem (though surely we have all been trying), but we have all failed equally...none of us better than the other in that.  It doesn't seem appropriate, then, for you to get so upset at the same failures of others that applies to you as well.

      You also said, "...do anyone of us, who post our "advice" on the posts here realise, how our words can affect a person's life forever? DO we even pause and think before we so easily ask people who have shared years together to separate just because we think it is right!"

      I'm sure there are varying degrees of forethought responders engage in before posting. I've seem some responses that clearly have none, and I've seem many where it seemed the person behind the words could really empathize...even if their solution 'didn't work'.

      However, I think what we are trying to make clear to anyone who reads posts like this, is the fact that giving the advice to split from someone who is haraam to them (and again, not enough is known about this particular post to say it as more than a caveat) is not actually coming from us or our perceptions, but ultimately from Allah and shariah. The hard truth of the matter is that yes, in certain situations, Allah DOES expect someone to walk away from others they have been involved with for years, and the "effect" of it on either is totally secondary. When you understand a command as coming from Allah, you don't ask Him to consider the effects it has on whomever is involved. There is trust that His wisdom in putting forth such a boundary will resolve that in the best way possible, even if it feels totally painful to the creation.

      You said, " I am really concerned, are we even wise enough to handle people and their situations?? " I guess the question would be, compared to what? Essentially no, none of us are qualified (no matter what education, qualifications, experience etc we possess) to handle the human heart. That is a matter left strictly to Allah, but in His grace he has allowed humans to help one another in certain ways, and many times we benefit from sharing burdens and perspectives. In fact, we are advised to look after the needs of fellow believers and neighbors, no matter what kind they are! Certainly we often make mistakes in doing so,  but the solution would never be to stop trying to help altogether. For some reason, Allah has entrusted us with a lot of things we may not have the "wisdom to handle",  quite possibly all as part of the test of this existence. To pass a test, you still have to give your best shot in trying to succeed, and I think it's safe to say that's what most of us are already trying to do here.

      You said, "Who are we to judge them or tell them to reform themselves? Are we by any chance running a rehabilitation centre or what?"

      This website is not compulsory on anyone. No one has to post a question or seek anyone's advice, for that matter. However, when someone does submit a post about their situation, they are requesting someone to assess (even judge) their circumstances and give advice that will guide them out of confusion and back to peace.  I don't see this brother as being condemned by others (being judged in that sense) as much as he is being told the correct path forward-even if no one has said yet HOW to tread it. Actually, if anyone seemed judgmental of the OP here, it may have been you with your references of holding him accountable to sins he's committed in getting this far. The bottom line here is, if someone wants to invite our views and feedback, it would be silly of them to reject it and tell us we had no right to give it. The permission for criticism (constructive, of course) is implicit in the query itself.

      You said, "I am only concerned with the guy who's let my beliefs and let my religion down."   How did he let YOU down? Unless you know him personally, he could only have let down this girl and himself, and their families. Our lives and our faith shouldn't hinge on the successful practice of Islam in those around us. If someone starts to feel that's what's happening, then clearly something is out of balance and needs to be adjusted in that person. I can say that because when I was a new Muslim, I used to go through that kind of experience myself. However, I came to realize that fixing everyone else was NOT going to fix the lack of certainty and iman in my heart...in fact if that were to have happened it would have only reinforced me being dependent on something other than Allah for my groundedness.

      You said,"....I am sure the guy grew up learning basic fundamentals of Islam. How could he let that down? Are we so weak, that the world around can sabotage our very basic ideals and value system?" We really don't know what kind of Islam anyone may or may not have even exposed to, so it's pointless to presume anything on those lines. And yes, as it happens, there are a lot of people who are exactly that weak that dunya so affects them. So what then? Do we resent them for their weakness? Do we find an illusion of superiority in the idea that we are not THAT weak ourselves? Is that how we should manage our weak brothers and sisters, or wouldn't it be better to help them find a way to become stronger? Usually if dunya is the kryptonite, the solution is to stay away from it. So again with this post,  telling him to avoid or forego what has helped lead to his ruin is entirely in order.

      You said, "Believe me, let the OP here follow what you have suggested and few months down the line, we will have another Ona posting a question on this forum and she will exactly get the kind of advice you have given to Ona!" I don't see how you are meaning this. From what I can see, the advice we are giving to this man is to cut ties and leave her alone. If he did that, how would we have an Ona post? However, if he marries her to "make it right",  then I can really see a post from her coming down the pike about their loveless, disrespectful marriage.

      You said, "I have an excellent suggestion for this, let the guy...devote his entire life to the service of ALLAH. Why marry, why ruin another life? He's anyway jumped the line, so now let him repent and atone for his sins by deciding not to marry and instead devote his life to the service of our ummah and ALLAH?"

      Devoting himself to Allah is an excellent suggestion. He-all of us, should be endeavoring to do that every day anyway. However, you saying that he should do so by forever swearing off marriage is actually contrary to that devotion. We don't have muslim "monks" , because marriage is a highly encouraged sunnah. It is half our deen. What sense would it make to advise someone against doing something that would 1. Please Allah and 2. Keep him away from the temptations of singlehood? It sounds to me like you are only advising this course to punish him for his past sins. If he had already sought and found forgiveness with Allah for those things, the idea of suffering alone for the rest of his life is harsh and ludicrous.

      You said, "... the only thing that disturbs me is why do we need to wait for people make mistakes and then help and encourage them with solutions! Don't you think, the only way out is to get pro-active?"

      In life, this is often the way it goes. People seek correction after messing up their lives, they seek forgiveness after damage done. They come for answers after creating the problem. This isn't a Muslim problem, it's a HUMAN problem.  The pride of human nature has us doing what we think is best, and only after we have failed do we realize we need something greater than ourselves, some help, in living life successfully. And actually, there are quite a few warnings and warners out there trying to help others avoid exactly these types of situations. The reason these things still happen is not so much due to a lack of available interventions, but because our pride tricks us into thinking we can do it on our own and still make out ok.

      You said (albeit more directly to ProfX), "...aren't some very irresponsible "believers" affecting the entire ummah? Why are we letting them have the eascape route they always look for?....Why are we (you, I or every believer) becoming the instruments in helping these guys go scot free? "

      It sounds to me like you have been hurt by what you are seeing. You know what? You aren't the only one. Yes,  people are getting hurt by the hypocrisy and disobedience of others. It's a problem much bigger than this post, this brothers discreet circumstance.  I agree with you that there is a glaring lack of accountability going around.  Why does that happen? It happens because the bottom line with too many people is to be able to do what they want. I've even seen it on this site, where people claim to want help and guidance and a correct path to follow, but then when it's given it's too painful or frightening or doesn't feel good like sin, so they reject it and do as they like. Accountability only works as well as the intention one has to better themselves. Without that, it is no longer accountability but legalism, which only breeds even more corruption and hypocrisy.

      We do the best we can, little by little, post by post, to be an influence toward the right in a system that seems broken beyond repair. We do our best to show the light of true guidance and the straight path. In the end, everyone has their own choices, and there will always be those making--even delighting, in the wrong course. If you let yourself care about what's happening with others so much that you are losing faith yourself, then it's time to pull back and put the focus on the only thing you can successfully influence: yourself. 

      This man is someone you've never met, will likely never meet. In your mind, he is representing all of the wrongs you see in the ummah at large...but even then you are not living day in, day out with any of them, are you? In your home, your room, your real world, it's just you and Allah. Live your life with that being the focus, and you may inspire others to do the same. Enough people doing that, then you will see the type of transformation you are rallying for!

      -Amy
      IslamicAnswers.com Editor

  7. @Amy

    Yes, I have said WE, because I do include myself in this!!! (IF I HAVE USED A WORD IN MY POST THEN BELIEVE ME IT IS A CAREFULLY CHOSEN WORD!)

    I have said MY BELIEFS AND MY RELIGION has been let down, I never said "I"!

    When I said "You said (albeit more directly to ProfX), "...aren't some very irresponsible "believers" affecting the entire ummah"

    ASK ANYBODY AND THEY WILL TELL WHO HAVE I ADDRESSED THIS TO!

    ALL I CAN SAY IS READ EVERY SINGLE WORD I HAVE WRITTEN AND YOU WILL GET ALL YOUR ANSWERS IN THE POSTS I HAVE ALREADY WRITTEN.

    ON ONA, DO YOU KNOW WHY IS SHE HERE? SHE WAS IN A RELATIONSHIP WITH A MUSLIM MAN WHO LEFT HER AFTER YEARS OF RELATIONSHIP, WHICH ALSO INVOLVED PHYSICAL INTIMACY.

    ON THE GIRL POSING A QUESTION WITH REGARDS TO A DIFFICULT MARRIAGE, I AM SURE I DO NOT EVEN NEED TO TELL YOU THAT THE FORUM HAS SEVERAL POSTS ON THE SAME WITH WOMEN DEALING WITH IMMENSE TRAUMA EVEN IN MARRIAGES THAT WERE ARRANGED.

    ANYWAY, AT THE END OF IT ALL, THE WOMEN (BE IT A BELIEVER, BE IT A NON BELIEVER) IT SEEMS ARE AT THE RECEIVING END, WHICH IT SEEMS IS OK FOR EVERYONE!?!?!? FOR A MAN WHETHER HE'S DESERVING OR NOT, MUST MARRY! NO MATTER EVEN IF IT MEANS, MORE SUFFERING FOR A WIFE WHO HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ENTIRE MESS!

    I AM DISAPPOINTED, THAT AN EDITOR HAS FAILED TO READ MY POST MY CORRECTLY.

    I WILL NOT GET INTO THIS DISCUSSION ANYMORE. PLEASE CONTINUE DOING WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN DOING. READ THE POSTS A MONTH LATER, PERHAPS YOU WILL REALISE WHAT I WAS DOING AND WHAT I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO CONVEY.

    IF YOU THINK, DEFENDING THE OP IS THE BEST THING TO DO, PLEASE DO IT. I AM NOT HERE TO STOP ANYBODY, LIKE OTHERS I HAVE EXPRESSED MY VIEW.

    AS FAR AS ALLAH IS CONCERNED, HE KNOWS WHAT I AM DOING. I DO NOT THINK, I NEED TO EXPLAIN IT TO ANYBODY ANY FURTHER. MY BIGGEST CONSOLATION ATLEAST I AM RALLYING FOR WHAT IS RIGHT!

  8. @ AMY
    Actually, if anyone seemed judgmental of the OP here, it may have been you with your references of holding him accountable to sins he's committed in getting this far.

    The OP has said,

    " Please let me know whether I'm marrying that girl is a sin."

    The first response was from you, you had said,

    "The truth is, your emotions have already betrayed you and have enticed you to follow a sinful course with her as you have shared."

    I am perhaps one of the last respondents to this post. Sin is a word the OP used, was endorsed by you and I have only used it contextually.

    If that according to you is "I" being judgemental. I will let you have it. Perhaps now I understand, there's no point carrying this discussion any further.

    Thanks, anyway.

    May ALLAH bless you.

  9. Salaams,

    Somehow, I really feel like there is a big misunderstanding going on. Tourbillon, I see you getting so frustrated and I'm not really sure why? No one has disagreed with anything you've said except the ideas of marrying her without regard to her religious status or not marrying at all, ever again. Both of those are extreme and errant perspectives, so there should be some feedback expected with them. I think we are all trying to hear your frustrations, but it seems you keep getting more upset, and now you are attacking us as well?

    I think what's happening here is that you are looking at the past of one's post, what they did and how they messed up. Some of us are instead looking at the future, taking people at their word that they want to do it right as they move forward. I don't know about others, but one of the things I live by is the fact that one's past doesn't predict their future.

    Granted, there are a lot of people, a lot of women, who are hurt by people who never change their ways. In fact, I've been one of them. Its personally hard for me sometimes to hear about it over and over because it does happen so frequently. A lot of times, the best solution is for the people who are caught in these relationships to leave those people and move on working toward something better. I know in my case, it was the only thing that made a difference.

    So no, it's never OK for these things to happen. I haven't heard a single person on this thread say this man was right to do what he did in getting involved with her. No one is defending his actions to do so. No one has said he shouldn't pay a price for having done so. To me, giving her up and trying to move on without her seems a fair price...a price most don't end up paying because it just hurts their nafs too much. And also no, I don't think anyone reasonable is for marching women off to unfulfilling and heartbreaking marriages.

    Please don't misunderstand, just because I said he should find another woman to marry at some point doesn't mean I want another woman to be hurt. I think the reason you are automatically assuming his future wife would be at risk of suffering is because you think this man has not changed his ways. I really can't say for certain if he has or if he hasn't, but when someone who is a stranger to me says they want to change I work with that until the opposite is shown to be true. I can do that because I know for a FACT that people can and do change. There are killers who have stopped killing, robbers who have stopped robbing, liars who have stopped lying, violent people who have stopped hurting others, haters who have become lovers. The worst thing anyone can do for these (keeping in mind we never know just off the internet who is in this category or not) people who are really trying to better themselves, is hold up their past against them and tell them they have to live under its guilt for the rest of their lives.

    Trust me when I say, there is hardly anything more beautiful than to see someone who was a true wretch and a harm to others in their own way, to see them get it together and align their lives and choices with truth and right actions and see how transforming it is on their own character and those around them. Any person who posts on here, who has done wrong, COULD be that person, too. I don't want to miss the chance of being part of something truly great and inspiring, because I made the mistake of focusing on the wrong thing. For all we know, this man could become one of the most pious, and marry a sweet, pious sister and be a blessing to his family for generations. What one of us can say, at this point and with only this information, that it couldn't happen? But I'm not ignorant either, if this same man sends in 10 more posts over the next two years detailing the same pattern with 10 other women, then we can more clearly see the fiber of his true character.

    I know you didn't want to respond anything further, but I felt that I wanted to share that this was not meant to be a challenge between you and any of the rest of us respondents, nor should it be an inquisition of any of us against the OP. Clearly you care very much about things being the way they ought to be, and so do I...and so do many of the others on this post that I have become acquainted with. We are all on the same side, so if anything was taken wrongly and served only to increase your distress, that was never the intention.

    -Amy
    IslamicAnswers.com Editor

  10. Sorry, I typed that last response on my husband's laptop, I didn't realize he was logged in until after it hit...but it was really me!

    -Amy
    IslamicAnswers.com Editor

  11. Since you seem very concerned with why am I frustrated, I think, I owe you this answer. Perhaps, this is necessary.

    My frustration stems from the fact that a lot of people have FAILED to read and understand what I have said in the correct context!

    Read my first post and you will know what tone I have used and what I was talking about. But Prof. X had to highlight something without even realising what I had said.

    He said, in response to my post, that the OP has already said, "My parents and some priest advised me not to marry, as it is not allowed in Islam."

    To which I had to explain him, "Perhaps a reason why I have said, what I have said?!?!?!"
    If the OP's never bothered to consult the "priest" and parents while getting into a relationship with a Non Muslim, while entering into a physical relationship with a girl, which is totally forbidden in Islam, then why is he now concerned with sin, religion and his parents' wish?

    Do we understand the concept of SUBTEXT?

    If we do, then one shouldn't have had any problem understanding my post!

    The "attack" you are talking about was again in response to what you had said, "Actually, if anyone seemed judgmental of the OP here, it may have been you with your references of holding him accountable to sins he's committed in getting this far."

    Yes, I am frustrated and I am disappointed to know people could not read and interpret my posts correctly.

    I repeat, believe me, I choose my words very carefully.

    Also again, I'll insist, please read all my posts starting from my very first (you will exactly know what I have said and in what tone!), and you will have all the answers to everything everyone would ever need to know with regards to my view on this post.

    You may not consider a person's past, but I can never forget the fact, that a person has been wronged! The wrong doer may become whatever eventually he wants to, but nothing's worth unless and until the person he's wronged is given at least some peace in life. My only consolation is if not us than ALLAH certainly will bring justice to the wronged - the only hope, we mortals live on.

    Also, I do not know if you have noticed, but from my first post itself, I have never put the blame on one person here, I have been careful and fair enough to say the relationship and the subsequent decision was MUTUAL. The only reason, we're addressing the man here is, because he's having doubts on whether he should continue with the girl he's been with for so long or not. Had the girl posted the query, she would have got the same response from me.

    Am done with this now. I have made ample attempts to make myself very clear and that is all about it.

  12. @ AMY

    Also I would like to bring to your notice, my second post was addressed to Prof. X, to which you responded and in depth, without realising where the original discussion started from!

    If you notice, I had in fact skipped responding to your post. You see, we never had an argument going on in the first place!

    I hope, you do understand now why the frustration and where from!

    Thanks, anyway.

    May ALLAH bless all of us. Amen.

    • Asalaam alaikum,

      Thank you Sister Amy for expressing much of what I wanted to say.

      Sister tourbillon, I am not sure why you think that many of us are okay with the women being harmed in most situations? As many people here spend their time trying to help many women with advice, phone numbers, websites and even private emails to get them out of their situations, the latter of which are the Editors. Please take into consideration that you may have not read those threads yet.

      The subtext of your initial advice suggested that the man should not redirect his efforts in seeking more and appropriate Islamic advice based on the fact that he didn't before. I find that to be in error. He is trying to reform his decisions, so it is appropriate to get advice where he is ignorant in the matter, which is evident and belies your claim that he was either taught or raised with this information.

      You seemed to be upset in what I emphasized in discussing who he can marry by saying, "who does not know." I would point out however, that evidently it is the OP. That point must be emphasized to him since he did not grow up with that knowledge or had access to it before. That should tell you that he understood little about Islam, which contradicts your point of him knowing "enough" about Islam to drag into into the ground with him.

      If you have doubts about people's wisdom, it is fair, just as I have my doubts about yours.' There is consensus on this issue among several people, but that's what responses are for: to clarify our positions.

      Anyhow, for the OP, it signals some reform on his part, but in his case, he may be stuck in doing so. So if the best course of action is to leave her, then so be it. She may be hurt of course, but Allah (swt) will provide for her and that is the consolation that we all need to understand. No common human being no matter how much significance we place on them, will be there for us forever, so in the same sense, this woman will be looked after in some way. This is consistent with the advice I gave to Ona. Both of them would be taken care of by God, if they turn to Him.

      For Ona, since it is the woman posting and that guy doesn't even want to marry her, I can only give the appropriate advice and Sister Amy had assessed the situation clearly before. Ona's situation and this one are different as the men are attempting two different things right now: one seeking marriage, the other possibly seeking the same dating situation without marriage. I am not sure why you cannot see that or describe it as being inconsistent?

      Why would I tell people to reform themselves when they violate the tenets of their religion? The Fourth Caliph, Ali ibn Abu Talib (as) made it very clear as people of are of two types: your bother in faith or your brother in humanity. If they do not accept Islam, but may be a Jews or Christians, then we should extol them to worship God in their reformation of their character as they understand it. It's not telling them to deny Allah (swt), but to acknowledge that their heart may be only ready for what they know. I am not sure why you would not do the same, as in inter-faith interactions with individuals, this would be a good course of action. Knowing many Christians myself, I tell them simply, "If you cannot be Muslim, become the best adherent of Isa (as) and for Jews, Musa (as).

      In Islamic History, from the beginning to the end, there have always been so-called Muslims that have brought many disgraces to the ummah in the "name of Islam." Whether we are talking about certain Islamic rulers who issued the death order of the Holy Prophet's grandson or that idiot mufti in Hejaz who said last week that Muslims should dismantle churches, our religion suffers daily attacks from within. Though I do not mean to make light of this situation here, this brother is seeking some type of reformation in turning for the right advice: Islamic advice. There is no time limit to that no matter the gravity of his sins.

      By going to the priest and his parents he's trying to get back onto the Right Path, but you seemed upset that doing so would continue to harm another. That may be the consequence of it, but in truth, she may be better off without him. That is where in this woman's situation we must place faith in Allah (swt).

      I believe that Sister Amy gave the best advice initially. So if you would like me to provide a solution, my only advice is to say "ditto" to that of Sister Amy.

  13. Salaams Tourbillon,

    Yes, I did read your first post. And as it happens, Professor X responded by backing up what I said in my first answer to this brother. Because of that, I feel that indirectly you are speaking against the advice that I gave that everyone except you seems to agree with (in him not marrying her unless she's Christian or Jew), so I didn't think I was out of place to respond to what you said to him, because in essence it was a response to what I posted originally as well.

    I am reading your first post again, and without copy and pasting it word for word, here are what I see as the highlights of it, in a nutshell:

    1. That the OP shouldn't worry about doing the right thing now, since he didn't care about doing the right thing in the beginning by avoiding involvement with this girl.

    2. That the man leaving this girl behind would be another wrong, on top of the wrongs he's already committed.

    3. That the just and fair thing for him to do now would be to marry this girl and redeem himself as her husband.

    4. That even if it's "haraam" for him to marry her (because she is not muslim/christian/jew), it's forgiveable because it's "in sync" with your personal concept of fairness and justice.

    I will allow that maybe I'm missing something here, but it's really hard to take the above ideas out of your post, it seems that you were being pretty clear in at least saying this much.

    Maybe we should get back to the original post from nadeerk. His post was about finding out whether he can marry a particular girl. It was not about the "subtext" behind why he's asking- what got him to that point. The only person who has brought that aspect in is yourself.

    Again the simple answer to his question:

    He can marry her if the girl is Christian or Jew
    He can marry her if she converts to Islam
    He will be sinning to marry her if she is anything else but the above.
    He will be sinning to continue in any type of premarital relationship with her.

    He asked if he would be in sin, and the answer I gave was whether he would be in sin or not depending on how the variables play out. If someone asks "Am I sinning by doing XYZ?" and another answers "yes, XYZ is a sin", there is no judgement in that.

    Tourbillon, I think you summarized it up well when you said, "You may not consider a person's past, but I can never forget the fact, that a person has been wronged! The wrong doer may become whatever eventually he wants to, but nothing's worth unless and until the person he's wronged is given at least some peace in life. My only consolation is if not us than ALLAH certainly will bring justice to the wronged - the only hope, we mortals live on".

    I can acknowledge that some people can only find peace in justice. They can only rest when someone has been punished or paid a price for their wrongs. But there is a whole other group of folks, a group I happen to belong to, that finds the best healing in redemption and true transformation. For example, if I was a victim of a crime or wrongdoing on the behalf of someone else, it wouldn't bring me as much satisfaction to see someone go to jail or get some other type of similar recompense. What would bring me the true peace is seeing that person walk away from the bad life they have been living, and seeing them become a benefit to others instead of a harm. Honestly, the ones who have made these big mistakes actually wish more people were like me, than like yourself. Those who want second chances find there is nothing they can ever do to repay what they've done in harming someone, because they can't erase the past. If someone's been hurt, the best that can happen is healing, and healing usually comes with forgiveness over vengeance.

    One final thing: you said you believe Allah will never punish someone who's being just or fair. That may only prove true if we are defining justice and fairness in the exact same terms that Allah sets forth. Unfortunately, marring someone who is an unbeliever (if such proves to be the case) is not congruent with what Allah has required of us. I'm not saying it so much for your sake, but for anyone who thinks that "finishing what got started" is the ultimate duty. Anyone who thinks doing so is in alignment with Allah's definition of justice/fairness, is misguiding themselves and possibly others. That truly is the only reason I'm taking the time to respond to some of the things you've said. I really don't want anyone to be looking at it the wrong way or worse, acting upon it....especially the OP.

    -Amy
    IslamicAnswers.com Editor

    • This is with regards to your last 2nd paragraph in the above post,

      Are you really serious when you equate

      Justice for the wronged = Seeking Vengeance ???

      Is justice alll about vengeance, punishment? Are we suggesting that the wrong doer deserves all the help, mercy, forgiveness whatever while the wronged shouldn't be our concern? Even if it is your personal belied or sense of justice, I am concerned!

      I can understand people get carried away in the course of an intense discussion but not to the extent that we end up glorifying the wrong doer while completely disposing the one who's been miserably wronged and like you rightly said will never be the same again!

      For once, forget the differences in ideologies you and I have, and instead look at things objectively and you wil know what I have meant so far.

      Also read the post by "Truth seeker" and you will know what I have been talking about. The wrong doers you have so strongly stood for are not gullible men who made mistakes out of ignorance. They usually know wht they are doing and why!

      Nevertheless, to each his own. You do what you think is the best, I will do what I think is the best. Although on extreme ends, we will at least change things for good in whatever way we are able to! And that I believe will be the best outcome.

      Good luck & ALLAH Hafiz

  14. @to everyone concerned,

    Have you read the terms, (getting) PRO-ACTIVE (in stopping the wrong doers), and (I am not with) PEDANTIC (belief in Islam) in most of my posts above??

    These two terms are enough to justify MY VALUES, MY BELIEFS, MY SENSE OF JUSTICE AND FAIRNESS!

    Yes, I am not someone who'll wait for mistakes to happen, to wait for injustice to happen to others because it will become a golden opportunity for "inspiring" redemptions and transformations to happen, to glorify the wrong doers!

    Yes, I am not a PEDANTIC believer and hence I'll speak out for everyone who's being wronged irrespective of his / her gender, nationality and religion!

    Read, any of my posts on the forum, and you will realise I have been consistent with YES my belief of fairness and justice, whether he / she was a believer or a non - believer, and that perhaps says it all.

  15. That even if it's "haraam" for him to marry her (because she is not muslim/christian/jew), it's forgiveable because it's "in sync" with your personal concept of fairness and justice.

    If you think God can forgive a man for his previous HARAAM actions (which includes premarital intimacy with a woman, carrying a relationship for 6 LONG years, without a moment of realisation of his wrong doings (forget religion, these actions are not even in sync with normal human values!!! You see, in case, you really wish to believe, this OP has no idea on what Islam's all about, if he didn't know his actions were HARAAM!), for every act of worst kind of disobedience to ALLAH), why can't ALLAH forgive him for restoring the respect of a woman this man claims to have loved and INTENDS to marry?!?!

    I have said perhaps n number of times by now, read my posts and you will have all your answers there.

    Also, no this OP won't come here to raise this question, in case he ends up repeating his "act", you have already given him enough and ample reasons to WHY everyone's allowed to make mistake, why it is ok to redeem eventually, irrespective of whether how many people (again creation of our beloved ALLAH?) get hurt in the process of his "inspiring" redemption and transformation!

    And now, no matter what we (You or I or others) write, this entire discussion has got much strength to at least make people THINK! I am VERY CONTENT about it!

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