Caste problems, how can I convince her parents?
The roots of the Indian caste system can be found in the Hindu scriptures, although the caste system was adopted by other religions in India as well.
Assalam walekum wa rehmatullahi wa barkatahu,
we are in relation with last 3 yrs, & now we confess to our parents about our relationship.
My family dont hve any objection but her parents are not agree, they want konkani & i m memon & now her parents r forcing her to get married with some1 else & her parents r not listening to her.
Plz help me how i convince her parents? I am waiting 4r ur rply from last week, plz do rply & plz remember me in ur dua....
- kabir
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Apologises for sounding ignorant but can someone please tell me what a Memon is? What are there beliefs etc.
Jazakallah.
ASSALAMALAIKUM
YOUR EXPLANATION IS NOT CLEAR WHAT ARE YOU
MEMON MUSLIM
OR
MENON KERALITE
AND MEMONS ARE MANY KUTCHI HALAI SURTHI ETC ETC WHAT IS THE GIRLS RELIGION KONKANI MEANS ITS FROM KONKAN A NAME OF A PLACE YOU ARE NOT VERY CLEAR
YOUR MESSAGE IS LIKE A TELEGRAM HOW CAN WE UNDERSTAND.
PL TYPE CLEARLY WHO ARE WHO IS THE GIRL WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM..
OK THEN
HOPE FOR REPLY
REGARDS
Assalamualaikum,
Brother Ali, There are innumerable communities in India. Perhaps people speaking the Konkani language form one community just like the Kutchi Memons. They are afterall Muslim and perhaps have the mindset that many memons have had for a long time, which is - marrying only within their community. Many communities have the same mindset which seems to be changing gradually now.
I have friends who are memon and have no problem marrying outside their community but some people still have the same old mindset, which is not Islamic; but cultural.
Brother Kabir, I don't think anything much can be done to change the mind of her parents. If you are a practicing Muslim, then tell them that you will be the best match for her and tell them that t is not going to affect their daughter but positively. Tell them that in Islam, caste or tribe does not matter. Give them examples from the lifetime of the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam when he married women from other tribes. This is all you can do, brother. If the parents choose a person for her who is not upright on his deen, then she has the right to say no. But until you convince them and they accept you, I do not see a good future for your relationship.
Abu Abdul Bari
IslamicAnswers.com Editor
Salam Kabir Bro!
I think that you are Muslim and She is too... If both of you Practicing Islam and both of your families then it is a common social issue that must be rejected that the caste of Both families must be same, But it is Appreciated in Islamic Fiqh that Proposed Husband and wife should be Socaily at same level in terms of Wealth, Religious Practices(Salat,Saom,Zakat etc.), for a better future life. BUT If these things are not there there status in Religion should be closely same. NOW What to DO is:
1) Convince Her Parents Religiously that Islam doesn't Regard Caste system and Based on Equality of Human and Love is most important thing in Islam.
2) Consent of Both Parties in Nikah is Obligatory(Farz), and if you Practice otherwise the Nikah will not be Valid.
3)and Convince them in Islamic way by telling them Quran and hadith about caste Tqwa and Marriage.
Jazzak Allah
Read this Note too:
https://www.facebook.com/notes/muslim-path/forced-marriage-in-the-light-of-quran-and-sahih-hadiths-islamic-view/286606001466253
asalamu alaiku,
never heard of konkani.
ma salama
India is vast and culturally diverse. Hinduism was the only religion here and hence people were divided into casts but people were also divided into several big and small communities. For example- There is this main community and then the sub branches of that community etc. So basically this system of community exists on the basis of geographical region and language. Every community felt the need to preserve their culture from generations to generations for social reasons and and hence in order to preserve it laid down certain rules whoch included, prohibiting members from marrying outside community. They all considered themselves superior from the other communities whereas technically there wasnt anything to back that claim.
When the message of islam was brought down by the scholars from Arabia, persia etc people began to convert..but the evil of cast system and community bias was so deeply rooted that it remained. So if 1 was to offer a choice to the bride's father from choosing between a handsome, righteous and educated groom from another community and an absolute idiot from his community he will no matter what choose the idiot. Its that bad. If some1 from a particular community holds an important position in a company then his partiality towards his juniors from his community will be evident. Whether it is about hiring a less experienced employee or promoting an inefficient junior staff to an important post etc. And they feel no guilt coz they r just being loyal. A duty towards their community. Sadly i dont belong to any community so we dont get promotions like that. 🙁
The memon community is from gujarat and they speak memony which is somewhat like gujarati. They r
further divided onto 2 subcommunities.. And i have heard them bad mouth eachother, both think they r more superior than the other..lol. Konkanis are from the coastal area of maharashtra and they speak konkani language which sounds very much like marathi. They r culturally very different from eachother. The educated lot in india dismisses the norms and follows islam the way it should and dont feel the need to latch on to the community but most ppl r still old fashioned and tend to follow their traditional pattern. They still fear being an outcast. Their community have a special community centre, financial Support system (zakat collected only for their community),their community graveyard, masjid, scholarship programms etc etc etc.
but its not so tough to walk out of the system. I have seen many arranged marriages happen between these 2 communities and others as well and yet i find very difficult to understand y some of them find is so hard while some dont. This brother is lucky that his parents do not feel any such pressure. I think this brother and his family should try to convince the girl's family but she should have known it better. I mean didnt she know before she made this commitment with this brother that her family wont accept him?
Konkanis are predominantly from Karnataka and Goa 🙂
See basically they belong to the coastal belt called konkan hence the name konkani. Just like there r memons in other states and even in pakistan but basically their roots r from gujarat. I dont know about the konkanis that live in kerela but the ones from maharashtra and goa speak their special language which sounds very much like marathis. They r more educated than the memons, coz memons boys rush to join their family business. My knowlege about konkanis isnt too good but i like them both. I had memon friends and a konkani aunt. 🙂 love them all.
assalam alaikum
theres a girl whom i love her alot ..my parents have also send rishta at her place but after a month or so her dad said no for my rishta ..reason is dat dey r hanafi type (who dont believe in dargah niyaz and etc) and v r sunni hu believes in particular thing in islam ...she even convinced her dad but still its no..pls tell me sum way for it or any dua which can solve my problem ...
allah hafiz
hhl, wa alaykum as-salam. Hanafis are Sunnis as well. To deny someone marriage because they follow a different madhhab is silly. See if you can find an Imam who believes in the unity of Muslims regardless of madhhab. Maybe the Imam can talk to the girl's family and convince them. If not, perhaps you can speak to them personally and tell them that the children will be taught the Hanafi madhhab (if you have no objection). Perhaps that will mollify them.
Wael
IslamicAnswers.com Editor
I agree...a rejection should not be based on madhhab if the Aqeedah is sound - the Aqeedah of the Salaf.
But I am afraid this rejection is valid in Sharee'ah. Dargah Niyaz mentioned by you (hhl) is an innovation and in most cases reaches the level of Shirk with Allah. Why would a father want to marry his daughter off to a man who isn't upon the Sunnah but prays to someone other than Allah? (even though indirectly).
Brother hhl, please stay away from such actions as dargah niyaz, tawassul through the dead and so on. Correct your Aqeedah and accept the Aqeedah of the Sahaabah, the Salaf as Saliheen. You can talk to her father after this, and he should have no valid reason for rejection then.
Abu Abdul Bari
IslamicAnswers.com Editor
@hhl - walaikumassalam warahmatullahi wabarakatuhu.
May Allah guide us to the right path and keep us firm on it.
My brother in Islam ,
going to dargah and asking from graves is shirk. Shirk is a major sin which if you die in that state Allah will never forgive.
Don't you want to go to heaven ?
Learn about Islam ,
learn what is tawheed , right aqeedah.
I request you to read this book and follow it.
http://www.kalamullah.com/Books/kitab_ut_tawheed.pdf
May Allah grant us success! May peace and blessings be upon our Prophet, his family and Companions!
here my problem is about that girl whom i love a lot ..and anyways can u tell me the way for convincing his dad besides sunni's nd wahabis
I am giving you the solution to your problem. Learn about Islam from the right sources.
Learn what is tawheed , what is shirk.
As brother Abu Abdul Bari said earlier "Correct your Aqeedah and accept the Aqeedah of the Sahaabah, the Salaf as Saliheen. You can talk to her father after this, and he should have no valid reason for rejection then." inshaAllah.
Do that. abdurrahman(dot)org/ <- a link which you could find useful to learn about Islam inshaAllah
[replace (dot) by . in the link and search in your browser]
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May Allah grant us success! May peace and blessings be upon our Prophet, his family and Companions!
Religious issue is good enough reason to deny. It may be possible that her father wants someone with good 'true' religion which obviously is missing with you when you said you believe in 'dargah niyyaz' (btw I have no idea what this is, I only knew it through bro Abu Abdul Bari's explanation). So basically, there is no way for convincing her father unless you change your understanding of Islam by learning the correct aqeedah and fiqhi matters, possibly adhereing to one of the four madhabs (like shafi'i etc). And also pray to Allah alone, not through waseela. Insha'Allah He will guide you and give what is best for you.
ASSALAMALAIKUM-
علي بن عبد الله آل الشيخ
March 30, 2013 • 12:06 pm
YOUR SENTENCE IS CORRECT HERE ..........
You change your understanding of Islam by learning the correct aqeedah ......
PL TRY TO ONLY INITIATE THE PATH OF SALAFUSSALAHEEN............
TODAYS 4 MADHAB FOLLOWERS ARE TRAINED UNDER OF TAQLEED WHICH IS NOT OBLIGATORY ........BECAUSE SHAFI COMES UNDER THE FORMULATION-BUT IMAM SAHFI WAS AGAINST THE TAQLEED-THE 4 IMAMS FORBIDDING BLIND TAQLEED !!
http://the-finalrevelation.blogspot.in/2012/08/4-imams-forbidding-taqleed.html
4OO HIJRI MAI TAQLEED MEANS KHAUL[WRITTEN BY KHAYAL]BY THE IJMA OF INNOVATORS AND FORMULATED MANY MANY THINGS IN THE NAME OF ISLAM-SEE WHET WILL HAPPEN TO THEM- RasoolAllah [May Allah bless Him and grant Him peace] stated:
"On the Day of Judgement,
some people will come to me when I will be standing by Haudh-e-Kauser (Well).
They will be grabbed and taken towards the Hellfire.
I shall say: "These are my people" but in reply I will be told:
"These are the people who introduced innovations after you......
BEFORE COMING TO THE POND ALL OUR LIFE IN THIS WORLD MUST BE RECORDED
BY THE ANGELS THAT WE LIVED ON THE MANHAJ OF NABI SALAHUALAHAIWASALAM SAHABAS,
TABAYIN AND TABE TABAYIN-NOT LATER GENERATION SELF APPOINTED SCHOLARS WHIMS AND FANCIES-AND OPINIONS[TAQLEED MEAN KHAUL AND KHAUL MEANS TOLD FROM KHAYAL] WITH OUT EVIDENCE FROM QURAN -OR- HADEES-
BUT YOU GO WRONG HERE.......
TO PASS IN THE ABOVE ATTEMPT WE MUST ONLY FOLLOW THE TEACHINGS OF NABI SALALAHUALAHAIWASLAM .................
THIS ABOLISHES-THE ABOVE ATTEMPT-
possibly adhereing to one of the four madhabs (like shafi'i etc).
SEE HOW-
And the Saying of Allaah the Most Wise (which means),
"And whosoever contends with the Messenger after guidance has been plainly conveyed to him, and follows a way other than the way of the believers (the Companions), We shall leave him in the path he has chosen and land him in Hell - what an evil destination!" [4:115]
And the Saying of Allaah the Most Wise (which means), "And whosoever contends with the Messenger after guidance has been plainly conveyed to him, and follows a way other than the way of the believers (the Companions), We shall leave him in the path he has chosen and land him in Hell - what an evil destination!" [4:115]
"So he who follows my Sunnah has been guided, and he who follows the innovation has been destroyed."and he who follows the innovation has been destroyed."[Ahmad]
http://islaahh.wordpress.com/2012/10/17/prohibition-of-taqleed/
AGAIN HERE YOU ARE CORRECT.......SUBJECT TO STICKING TO SALAFUSALAHEEN ONLY-
possibly adhereing And pray to Allah alone, not through waseela. Insha'Allah
He will guide you and give what is best for you.
Wa'alaykumsalam,
I really can't sum up what you said due to contradicting your ownself, lack of Islamic knowledge, and the use of capital letters which I find extremely difficult to read (I know you have issues with your eyes but reading it makes my eyes sour too). I'm guessing that you are against madhabs as always, atleast thats how you've explained yourself. You seem to suggest that madhabs are something new or 'innovation'.
Just to give you an idea, The word madhab is derived from an Arabic word meaning "to go" or "to take as a way", and refers to a mujtahids(Islamic scolars who are competant to give sharia rulings by Ijtihad) choice in regard to a number of interpretive possibilities in deriving the rule of Allah from the primary texts of the Qur'an and hadith on a particular question. The mujtahid Imams were thus explainers, who operationalized the Qur'an and sunnah in the specific shari'a rulings in our lives that are collectively known as fiqh or "jurisprudence".
According to Imam Nawawi, it is necessary for a layman to follow a madhab unless he reach the level of mujtahid.
Basically, if a layman tries to interpret the Quran and hadith in his own ways and derive rulings regarding religion then surely they are going to follow their whims and desires and become an ally of shaytan.
You seem to think that madhab have some different source to derive Islamic ruling, so know that ,our Imams follow the Quran and hadith and not bible or torah lol.
You told me to try and follow the path of salaf al saliheen. Do you know who are the salaf al saliheen ? Basically, they are the muslims of the first 3 generations. Amazingly, this includes, Imam Abu Hanifa, Imam Al Shafi'i, Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal and Imam Malik, they are the tabi'ins. No one can say that these Imams are on the wrong path and yet when we follow the teachings of these Imams who taught us how to imitate our prophet, you call us 'misguided' ? Thats juvenile.
Furthermore, do you accept sahih hadiths by Imam Bukhari, Imam Muslim, Imam Nasa'i, Abu Dawood , Tirmidhi etc ? If yes, then know that, they all are ahl hadeeth and are followers of certain madhab like Imam Muslim, Imam Nasa'i, Ibn Majah etc are shafi'i madhab followers, Imam Tirmidhi follow Hanbali madhab etc., some say Imam Bukhari also follows Shafi'i madhab. Yet you seem to say that madhab are "innovation" and are bound to hell ? You used the hadith of Ahmad in your post, do you know who is Ahmad ? Aka Ahmad Ibn Hanbal. He is the CEO of Hanbali madhab. You are against madhab yet you use his hadith and other hadiths ? If they are following a madhab then you've got to discard their hadiths because as you say 'innovators' and the followers of madhabs are misguided. Furthermore, have you heard of Ibn Kathir (muffasir) ? He is also a follower of Shafi madhab just like other muffasir who follow other madhabs. So do you stop using tafsir now?
True that blind taqleed is wrong, here taqleed means 'following someone in the matter of religion who has no religious authority'. But the four great Imams, Bukhari, Muslim, Imam Nawawi, Ibn Kathir, Ibn Hajar, Suyuti etc etc holds authority to derive religious rulings and no one ever doubted them. And so you must be banned from the internet for putting up this verse ""And whosoever contends with the Messenger after guidance has been plainly conveyed to him, and follows a way other than the way of the believers (the Companions), We shall leave him in the path he has chosen and land him in Hell - what an evil destination!" [4:115] because by here you're implying that the salaf, the compilers of hadith, the great scholars etc are destined to hell and are not believers. Astagfirullah since all of them follow certain madhabs and you're implying that they oppose the messenger.
Whats the point in putting up that verse ?? It shows your lack of understanding Islam and using Quran just for your satisfaction.
Its funny how some people bash the followers of madhabs whose founder are the salaf and scholars of 6th, 7th, 8th century and yet they tell us to follow salaf al saliheen and they follow the scholars of the 16th, 18th, 20th century. Illogical
"The four madhabs are but the true inheritors of the sahabah which they codified and made into principles and so forth. Those that follow the madhab follow through these Imams, the Sahabah and the Prophet .
These four Imams are closest to the sahabh and learnt from sahabah and more better in knowledge and insight in understanding the religion than those who who come 18 centuries later and claiming to be following Quran and sunnah. So its a question of choosing between a neo-madhab formed 18centuries later or the madhab codified in the earliest period of Islam."
Choice is yours.
"If they had referred it to the Messenger and to those of authority among them, then those of them whose task it is to find it out would have known the matter" (Qur'an 4:83)
Assalamualaikum,
We should abstain from both extremes. Taqleed of an Imam regardless of a hadith being Sahih or not is one extreme. Accepting the word of the Imam as final is what is referred to here. The Aimmah formed opinions based on nusoos they were aware of. Possibly, some nusoos did not even reach them. The word of other than Allah and His Rasool can not be accepted as final, because humans are prone to error and they know only what Allah Makes them Know. All the Aimmah, not only the four, said that their madhhab is Saheeh ahaadeeth. They formed an opinion, but if they were aware of a hadith being sahih, that would be their madhhab.
The other extreme is that people call the followers of madhhab - disbelievers. I know people who oppose Imam Abu Hanifah in many things because they follow Sahih Ahaadeeth, but still call themselves Hanafi, because Imam Abu Hanifah Rahimahullah said that when a true hadith comes that is his madhhab. And he also said the if a Sahih hadith opposes his judgement, hadith should be accepted and his judgement should be thrown to the wall. This is true with all the Aimmah, not just Abu Hanifah.
The Salaf as Saliheen include many of the Aimmah, they also include Sufyan ath Thawree, ibn Uyaynah, al Basri, Mujahid, etc. None of these defined the deen by themselves but they understood it as the Sahaabah understood. They did err on some occasions being humans. We as followers of Rasool Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam, take from them the good and leave their errors. We understand the Quran and the Sunnah, as they understood. But if they were not aware of some Sunnah, we take it from another Imam who was aware of it.
For example, in recent times, Shaikh bin Baaz may have had one opinion and Shaikh Albani another. We take that which is closest to the Sunnah and leave their error. A person following Albani may be called "Albani" and the other maybe called "Baazi". We do not call such person a disbeliever. The persons agreeing with them need not be doing their Taqleed, but take their words as long as they are conforming to the Quran and the Sunnah. This is the same with all the four Aimmah and other Aimmah.
Hope it is clear.
Abu Abdul Bari
IslamicAnswers.com Editor
@ Bro Abu Abdul Bari,
Wa'alaykumsalam,
Well said brother.
True that the four Imams are not infalliable, they as humans are prone to make mistakes and thats why all of them said something like if a teaching contradicts the hadith, then accept the hadith and for this reason we have mujtahids who revised the teachings to find errors and update them upon the compilation of sahih ahadeeth, I'm specifically talking about shafi madhab, I don't know about others.
We don't consider their words as absolute truth. As a follower of Shafi'i madhab, we don't blindly follow the rulings unless and untill they give evidence from ahadeeth which they've done so far and I see no issue with my madhab.
Furthermore, Imam Shafi'i along with the school's leading scholars like Ibn Hajar, Nawawi, Ibn Kathir etc always give rulings with the use of ahadeeth, after all Imam Shafi and its scholars like Imam Muslim etc are ashab al hadeeth and a collector of it. And thats why the Shafi'i Madhab is distinguished among all the Sunni Schools in having the most illustrious Islamic scholars in history, in all fields, among its followers. As Imam al-Shafi'i emphasized the importance of muttasil hadith (connected) and undermined the relevance of mursal (skipped) hadith.
Whatever it is, even if a madhab has obvious flaws that doesn't make all its teaching wrong and its followers misguided as bro Abu Abdul Bari rightly said. Example, Shafi'i madhab didn't have any errors in its early stages, because Imam Shafi have huge amount of saheeh ahadith in his collection but not untill centuries later when new scholars like Imam Ghazali (half shafi, half sufi, half ashari etc) brought innovations but alhamdulilah, the shafi scholars like Nawawi and others ignored and condemed their teachings and din't make it a shafi madhab ruling.
Also Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani mentioned the people of hadith in his commentary of the hadith, "And this nation will continue, established upon Allah 's Command, unharmed by those who oppose them until the arrival of Allah's Order." He stated that Muhammad al-Bukhari was adamant that those referred to in this hadith were the people with knowledge of the narrations, Ahlal-Athar , i.e. the people of hadith. Ahmad Ibn Hanbal also said that this is reffering to ashab al hadith.
We should not even confine ourselves to scholars of one madhhab.
A mindset of accepting only the scholars of Shaafa'i ideology could be erroneous and deprived of much knowledge. For example, one can not deny Imam Ibn Taymiyyah because he preferred Imam Ahmad's opinion on many occasions and Imam Malik's opinion on many other occasions. As you said, the aimmah were themselves among Ahlal Athar or Ahlal Hadith (the people of Hadith), the people taking their opinions must also abide by this: aathaar/ahaadeeth.
Abu Abdul Bari
IslamicAnswers.com Editor
Brother Ali Yousuff,
I deleted both your pending comments because they were directly inviting a debate and we may not allow such a debate on our website. Instead, advising people based on what is correct is necessary. If some subject comes up, such as the dargah niyaz in this case, you can talk about it.
It is true that many people calling themselves Hanafi or Shafa'i (particularly in the subcontinent) are actually unaware that they are in fact following the Ashaa'irah and Ma'tureediyyah in the name of Abu Haneefah and ibn Idrees ash Shafa'i Rahimahumallah, and they should pay heed as soon as possible. But I think that discussion should happen in its correct place, which is not this page for sure.
Abu Abdul Bari
IslamicAnswers.com Editor
insha allah
thank you
let us know your progress my brother in Islam. Take care.
may Allah guide us and make it easy for us in both the lifes.
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May Allah grant us success! May peace and blessings be upon our Prophet, his family and Companions!